See, THIS is what is wrong with Conservatives

[cleanfun4all]

Oh, and Bill Gates gives away a lot to charity.  Guess he doesn't understand the real world.

Yeah, he does but he didn't get where he is by playing nice and giving things away. The M$ boys play for keeps and always have.

[Tor Inju]

Oh, and Bill Gates gives away a lot to charity.  Guess he doesn't understand the real world.

Yeah, he does but he didn't get where he is by playing nice and giving things away. The M$ boys play for keeps and always have.

And which is more moral, his cutthroat business tactics or his charitable activities?

[tom8517]

I want a candidate, who is a fiscal conservative, a defense hawk, a stay at home one, and a true conservative on social issues. Let people live their lives.

Well, that candidate was pretty much John McCain.

Especially as he really is and not what he became to try to pander to the wacko wing of the party.

McCain doomed himself when he chose a running mate whose best trait was looking better in high heels than Joe Bidden, an assumption, having never seen Biden in heels.

[Tor Inju]

Wait, a true conservative on social issues?  Do you not like sex or something?  The conservatives in America have NEVER been pro-sex. 

[tom8517]

Conservatives like sex, thats why we have all these little conservatives!  

but to adress the point you raised, I refuse to let myself be defined by the religious right merely because I happen to hold some views in common with them on other issues.

An extreme example being Hitler, Nazi refrerences always gets everone excited  , by all accounts he was an animal lover, and treated his german shepherd, well what kinda dog did you think Adolph had?, to a lavish life stlye, the dog lasting right till the end in the bunker with Eva and the boss. My point being that doesn't make PETA and the ASPCA Nazis becauses they share a concern for animal welfare with Hitler.

[Tor Inju]

I absolutely agree that one may be conservative and be pro-sex.  Just as I am a liberal and am anti-gun control.

My comment was about 'true conservative on social issues'.  The conservatives have NEVER been about 'letting people live their lives', though individual mostly-conservatives might be. 

But as a movement, it has been anti-sex down the line.  They are only interested in letting people live their lives if they live them exactly as they are told to.

[cleanfun4all]

Shocking as it may be, I disagree… 

You’re taking your personal definition of conservative, which seems to be based on the views of what I will politely call religious conservatives and then applying it to anyone with a right of center political view.

Reagan certainly used the religious right when it was to his advantage to do so, but he also kept them at arms length. Goldwater didn’t even attempt to play nice with them; he had nothing but contempt for them.

What two consenting adults do behind closed doors is their business. It’s not mine, it’s not yours and it sure as hell isn’t the government’s and that view is entirely consistent with Goldwater type conservatism.

[Tor Inju]

Shocking as it may be, I disagree… 

You’re taking your personal definition of conservative, which seems to be based on the views of what I will politely call religious conservatives and then applying it to anyone with a right of center political view.

Reagan certainly used the religious right when it was to his advantage to do so, but he also kept them at arms length. Goldwater didn’t even attempt to play nice with them; he had nothing but contempt for them.

What two consenting adults do behind closed doors is their business. It’s not mine, it’s not yours and it sure as hell isn’t the government’s and that view is entirely consistent with Goldwater type conservatism.

Its not my definition.

Who is against gay marriage?

Who is against abortion?

Who pushes for higher punishments for drug offenses?

Who passed the anti sodomy laws lately?

If we can't say that Conservatives are for those things, we can't say they stand for anything.  In which case saying that one is or votes Conservative is deeply stupid, as the term is null by your definition.  Saying you want a true conservative on social issues would equal saying you want someone that has unknown opinions on social issues.

But the fact is, while you may be conservative on other issues, you are liberal on social issues.  I know in some circles that is the equivalent of accusing you of having sex with your mother, but once you get past neocon propaganda, it is only a way of describing a political viewpoint.

If it helps any, I am mostly liberal, but have some conservative stances on a few issues.

[cleanfun4all]

No, if I were liberal on social issues, then I would support the nanny state, Obamacare, endless government handouts, subsidized public housing for life, etc. all paid for by taxing evil rich people and/or adding to an already staggering national debt.

When it comes to issues such as sex outside of marriage, abortion, gay marriage, what specific types of sex acts two consenting adults want to engage in, etc. then I'm a social libertarian.

So was Goldwater and I'm fairly certain that's what Tom meant by having a candidate who's a true conservative on social issues.

[tom8517]

Its all about consistency. I want a minimum of government interference in my life, and I apply that across the board, on social as well as economic issues.

Most liberals have no problem with the government redistributing income, forcing people to buy health insurance, choking business, large and small, with endless regulation, and taxing inheritances, money on which taxes were already paid. But they howl that the government has no right to decide who can marry who, or restrict a womens right to chose.

 

[Tor Inju]

So who is now applying their own definition of what a liberal is?

No, that makes you a fiscal conservative.

I assume you would like people to have healthcare, if we could afford it.  I don't think you get pissed off if a poor person has healthcare, if it he pays for it himself.

I don't think you have a problem with poor people having a place to live, you have a problem with the government paying for it.

Taxing the rich is a fiscal issue, not a social issue.

I assume that you are not against government sponsored suicide prevention hotlines, as they help a lot and cost pretty much nothing.

Now I would argue whether we can afford these things, but what we disagree about is the money, not whether it is a good thing for people to have these things.

But your views on those things that do not cost money is liberal.  Welcome to the dark side.

[tom8517]

But your views on those things that do not cost money is liberal.  Welcome to the dark side.

Pours a large tequila, cracks open a favorite Buckley tome, and searches youtube for solace with Goldwater and Reagan. The horror, the horror!!!

[Tor Inju]

[tom8517]

surfing youtube, I rediscovered what a presence Goldwater really was, he paved the way for Reagan's success in the '80s. Particularly relevant to our current discussion are Barry's comments concerning Falwell and the other American Mullahs.

link://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7kdLEjb9gM&feature=related

[Tor Inju]

Reagan would be considered a fiscal liberal now.

He had the largest peacetime raise in taxes in American history link://old.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200310290853.asp

He was a fan of deficit spending link://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/07/deficit-chicken-hawks-vs-ronald-reagan/

He expanded the Federal government

He saved Social Security with a $165 billion bailout.

If he ran today, the Conservatives would consider him a socialist.